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Opinion: I'd trade my man card for a furry conbadge

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Phil Elmore When I was a kid, I had a magic card whose flavour text read, "She had expected death to roar, to thunder, to growl. She did not recognize it when it came hissing to her side." If Phil Elmore had designed that card, it would've probably read, "She had expected death to roar, to thunder, to growl. She did not recognize it when it came in a cute and fluffy guise." That's because Phil Elmore thinks that furry is the latest crack in the foundation of society that will lead to, in his own words, the "destruction of society." He is wrong. He is so, so very wrong.

It's a bit ironic that, on his own website, Phil describes himself as "saying, writing, and printing the truth" when he was capable of penning an article with so many inaccuracies. He's wrong about click-bait headlines (they are due to the structure of online advertising, not social media and short attention spans), wrong about the furry fandom ("Can there really be any doubt that the majority of “furries” are likely pedophiles?" Yes, there could and should be.) and, probably, wrong about Zootopia.

The article quotes an earlier piece by Emily Gaudette for the website Inverse:

Could it be a coincidence that Disney chose a fox protagonist for its first fully anthro feature, considering foxes are arguably the most popular ‘fursona’ cited by furries? Many furries name the hero of Disney’s animated Robin Hood, also a fox, when recalling their first sexual feelings for anthropomorphized animals?

Sibilant Spirit card It's probably more likely that they chose a fox for the same reasons that many furries choose foxes; people like foxes. A simple trip to Wikipedia would've shown that foxes occur in the folklore and mythology of almost every culture and have done so for millennia.

But it's not just furries that have him bothered; he also takes time to rail at liberals, transsexuals, bronies and feminists. Each time painting in huge brushstrokes that make this Spanish woman's work look like a masterpiece. If he was at least criticizing actual positions it wouldn't be so bad but the furry fandom is hardly a homogeneous culture. About the only consistent position is that furries are tolerant and the only disagreement is how tolerant is too tolerant. Needless to say, Phil is almost certainly against any form of tolerance.

His opposition to all these things is rooted in two places. First, and Freud would've had a field day with it, is his obsession with masculinity. He assumes that "masculinity is the fuel on which society runs, on which innovation occurs, on which industries are built and on which wars are fought to protect a free people." Not quite' but your overcompensation is revealing a bit more about you than you probably want to share. Second, he thinks anything that is not masculine enough is childish.

By embracing “furries” and other perverts, we are producing a population of incapable, weak-minded children. /…/ It presages the extinction of the rational, responsible adults who once formed the backbone of our nation.

He earlier defined childish as irresponsible, impulsive and unproductive. Could these apply to furs? Individually, sure. As a community, no. Irresponsible? Was it irresponsible when Eurofurence raised €32 000 for a charity fallen on hard times? Or when furries raised $20 000 for a restaurant that had been good to them? I'm not sure what one can say about impulsiveness when talking about a fandom but unproductive is not something you can say. The furry fandom has produced a feature length film, has over 9 million submissions to the largest furry site, and hosts authors, artists and others who've been nominated for and won mainstream awards.

Of course there are bigger questions that an article such as Phil's raises. What do we call mature, and what do we call childish? I read a short anecdote once about a person looking at the warnings on a film. It warned about adult language. The author thought about it and then gave some examples of adult language: responsibility, honesty, dedication, self-discipline. That was real adult language. So sure, he can call furries and bronies childish, but let's think about bronies for a moment.

A lot of what happens in My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (yes, it's a show originally intended for little girls) revolves around the elements of harmony; honesty, loyalty, generosity, kindness, laughter and magic. Are those childish? In some ways it's a bit sad that a show around those values is considered childish but shows about violence are considered adult. Are our values supposed to change as well?

All things considered, I want to live in a world with more honesty, more loyalty, more generosity, more kindness, more laughter and more magic. I'd rather we cast aside our violence, superstitions, hatred and tribalism as we became adults. If that makes me childish, so be it. I still remember how to have fun. Now maybe I'll trade my man card for a conbadge, go hug a fursuiter and relax in a world where everyone is free to live their lives as they choose. Do as you will.

Comments

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Well, nice longform essay, but there are two much quicker responses to Mr. Elmore; noted fan of what he called "dressed animals" C.S. Lewis's response to the same Bible verse Elmore quotes: "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Or, you could just link to this.

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Also, it was seriously hard to find a GIS image of the guy that didn't look like I was deliberately making him look stupid.

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Wow, you're right! I suppose the pictures are nice to have but I do find the placing strange. But I should say thank you for catching the misattributed quotation. I didn't realise it was so long and thought he'd stopped quoting much sooner.

There are shorter responses but I did want to bring up the later sections. Specifically why we consider virtues to be childish but things that should be childish to be adult. For example, the only time you really hear anyone saying "enemies" is on the playground or the battlefield. It would be seen as very odd in business or daily life.

I did read an essay about the fear of childishness. If I could remember where that was I might've worked it in as well.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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Well, you know, C.S. Lewis probably not your favorite essayist.

But that comment probably came out harsher than intended. Well, harsher at you, anyway; meant to be pretty harsh at him.

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I love that CS Lewis quote. I employ it frequently!

~ Huskyteer

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I would rather live in Equestria than our modern world. yes, that *is* childish to think that such a world can exist, but it's better than anything we do today.

I cried 'unmanly' tears, as a native Pittsburgher, when I saw what the people at AnthroCon had done for Fernandos. I laugh, I cry at some of the charity stuff. It's more than Mr. Elmore has done I bet.

M.C. Hogarth, Mary E Lowd, etc are all established authors that can be accounted among the furry population. They are very successful (and talented).

I think what Mr. Elmore did was project his own insecurities onto the fandoms because he had nothing better to do.

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You know what, at first I was hesitant to think this thing was the furry injection into the mainstream.

But given that all the major popular movies and anime had someone in the religious sector bitching that the 'kids these days like this more than Jesus' thing. And the subsequent, "people who like these fictional works are going to hell." stints.

Congratulation furry, you have now joined the ranks of Harry Potter and Pokemon. You are now mainstream.

Now if only the religious sectors would learn that God is not as jealous of Harry, Nick Wilde, or Pikachu as his followers are, things would be better in the world.

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There's a reason why those of us with any sense refer to World Net Daily as "World Nut Daily".

Had WND been around a century ago, it'd be attacking Charlie Chaplin and his newfangled, Jewish-funded motion pictures; had it been around 60 years ago, its ire would have been directed against EC Comics and Elvis Presley. What was around 60 years ago was the John Birch Society -- Google them, and be in no doubt that WND is its contemporary equivalent, still crazy after all these years.

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They also have this nasty pop under if you visit the site, which is also not cool.

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The term Yellow Journalism was coined in the mid-1890s to describe such kind of stories/articles.

I'm sure such things had existed not too far after the printing press's creation though.

Humanity, humanity never changes.

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I guess we go in for blue journalism, then? Though you and the author seem to be fans of red…

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Not to get political but the tea party would be closer to the john birch society than WND. Especially JBS and TP both had/have Kochs involved.

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"Could it be a coincidence that Disney chose a fox protagonist for its first fully anthro feature, considering foxes are arguably the most popular ‘fursona’ cited by furries? Many furries name the hero of Disney’s animated Robin Hood, also a fox, when recalling their first sexual feelings for anthropomorphized animals?"

I am confused, or Elmore is confused, or Gaudette was confused. This seems to be saying that "Zootopia" is Disney's first fully anthro feature while it cites Disney's previous "Robin Hood". And don't forget (as Disney itself seems to have) its "Chicken Little", which did not have a fox protagonist but was a fully anthro feature.

Fred Patten

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I'm guessing the Chicken Little thing is willful forgetfulness.

But I think Fred's on the right track and there's a third option between "furry bait" and "foxes are popular" explanations for Nick's species (and the director has more or less confirmed it); it's an in house reference. Last time we did an anthro movie, the fox was the protagonist, so that works (and then they switched him from lead to supporting during the story phase of production, but that's neither her nor there).

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"Children grow into adulthood. Adulthood requires a casting off a childish things and ways."

Over to you, Doc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=868fv8-wRN0

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Oh, that's also a great response!

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Dude - you're mud wrestling with a pig. Don't spread the mud by trying reason and logic.

It's better to throw out phil's ED page, point out that there isn't a photo of him anywhere that doesn't show a severe case of impacted bowels, or just mention that he's a grown up playing schoolyard bully because he has a micropenis and nobody will sword fight him for real. https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Phil_Elmore

But the best thing to do with these troglodytes is send them hugs. Magical, care bear stare, can't stop smiling hugs that you send like you're saluting darth vader. The more they insult the more hugs you send. It takes a while to process and then they get the idea that bashing makes you get cuddly and you like it. It makes them feel dirty and then you win.

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In my defence, I'd never heard of the guy before. I even considered posting this to two other sites, one being WND. Of course then I looked at the contributors and went, "Wait a second... I've seen some of those names before. They're all crazy people." So I realised they'd never want a different opinion and decided to come back home.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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LOL yeah you don't want to go anywhere near there. It's on the level of the worst of the worst of Tumblr and makes their tea party friends look smart and sane.

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Don't forget the famous adage "To each his own."

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I had two reactions to this article being discussed:

1) Given the other "essayists" found at that web site, my first reaction to the article was to roll up my eyes and say "Consider the source..."

2)Given that we've been having Furry Fandom conventions for more than 25 years, I'd say that Mr. Elmore is a bit late to the party.

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If someone was wrong on the Internet I would probably not write a long article.

Well, I'll be...

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If "furry" is a crack in the foundation of society that will lead to its destruction, I say let society be destroyed just so it can be reborn. Ashes to ashes,

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So you're saying furries caused Black Mesa… Half-Life 3 confirmed!

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That was a joke. Ha Ha. Fat chance.

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Western society doesn't seem to be doing so badly despite all the 'cracks' in its foundations during the 20th century: motion pictures, female suffrage, the New Deal, television, rock 'n' roll, EC Comics, video games, rap...

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I'm a little disappointed in this article. Instead of taking an objectionable view to the guy's posts, instead it seeks to claim everything he says is wrong. I actually understood quite a lot of what the guy was saying and why he was saying it. It's important to listen to why people are saying the things they say instead of just focusing on their choices of words. And when I do that, I agree with this person's sentiments. Set aside the hyperbole and occasional lack of full education on the topics on hand, and instead listen to the cause of why he says what he does.

Anyway, thumbs down to this article for seeming to do nothing but pick apart the literal words in a random cynical article. :(

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Jeez, sorry for being the type of person who can read a rant and think beyond the words used in the rant. :/ Oh well. I still have my own pride. Sorry this guy got under your skin, article-author, but I really suggest that you approach it from 'why does he think this way' instead of just 'this idiot is dumb let's laugh at his choice of words'...

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I think maybe you got down voted because I didn't write about his choice of words, I wrote about his ideas. If his statements are wrong, it's important because the chances of getting the right conclusion from the wrong facts are extremely low. I did also mention why he thinks the way he does. He has masculinity issues; hence why he hates anything that isn't male and feels the need to pose with weapons in 90% of his photos.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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Great read! I like this article a lot!

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Deviancy ... mainstreamed!

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Furries, conservatives, gamergate and Trump.

http://dogpatch.press/2016/08/25/enough-already-rmfc/

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I put off reading this article for a while. I was afraid it would just be one sided conservative bashing in a liberal echo-chamber. Fortunately, after reading, I see this is not so much the case (although the beginning does come off as a rant).

First I'd have to criticize your choice of title, it gives the impression that you think masculinity is a bad thing, and also implies that you can have only one or the other. There's nothing wrong with being masculine, or being a furry, and likewise, there's nothing wrong with not being any of those things; and it goes without saying that furry and masculinity aren't mutually exclusive. Basically what Mr. Elmore (as I'm sure you understood) sees is a new form of bizarre (and possibly dangerous) sexual behavior. I don't think it's wrong to be worried about this, for we all know of the consequences of something like sexuality getting out of hand.

I agree with your statement that Elmore made some factual errors, but I also don't blame him either. Furries are such a small and limited fanbase that the only way to really "research" it is to going and interact in it to a significant degree. To him, furry fandom is synonymous with murrsuiters. While he is wrong, once again it's hard to blame him considering that "Fursuit Yiff" will get you over 20 pages of results on xtube.

You later state that he has an "obsession" with masculinity, I have to disagree with you on that. He only touches on it briefly in one paragraph, then moves on to the topic of maturity. When I read his article, I found that rather confusing, what does masculinity have to do with sexuality? Masculinity is defined as traits associated with men. How does that relate to something like age, or sexual behavior? What he apparently meant in that paragraph (with his example of the Pajama boy meme) is that he fears liberalism (and other issues associated with it like GLBT) will lead to extreme dependence on government, similar to how children are dependent on their parents. When you think about it, he does have a point. If we raise a generation of people who are lack independence, and are severely oversensitive, they're going to have some problems interacting in the unfair harsh world we live in.

I also have to disagree with your statement that he makes a dichotomy between masculinity and immaturity, no where does he state this. He simply views masculinity and maturity as positive traits in adults, like I said earlier, I found it unusual that he mentioned masculinity at all, because when I think of the topic of sexual deviancy, or immaturity, masculinity doesn't come to mind at all. When he defines three qualities of immaturity, I immediately thought of multiple examples I have personally experienced. A furry spending way too much money on art or a convention, an internet meltdown where someone says they're "leaving the fandom forever", and artists being way to lazy to finish art they were paid to do. I'm assuming you have just as many anecdotes as me, so we both know that furries are certainly capable of being childish, and from the evidence you provide in your rebuttal, you show that furries are capable of being mature, as well as charitable (you seemed to neglect to give a response that furries can be impulsive). So the real question now is "Does the good outweigh the bad?" And unfortunately, I don't see any way we can find out.

One thing I'm REALLY glad you brought up is the question of what exactly IS mature and immature. This is something I've thought about quite a bit in reference to the fandom for quite a while. A lot of people speculate that the reason we are all furries is because we never lost that (supposedly) "child like" affection for talking animals. And dressing up as a dog and pretending to be one DOES certainly seem like something any kid would do wouldn't it? On the other hand, it is not childish to enjoy a particular kind of subject matter in art. No one would say that I am immature for appreciating the quality of a famous painting, or being entertained by the story of a good story, or moved by a great song. And of course, it's DEFINITELY not childish to enjoy eroticism. Despite how much I've thought about this, I can't give a definitive answer to whether or not I feel things like fur-suiting or furry artwork is or is not childish. But then again maybe we should judge them on a case by case basis.

As a final response, I would advise you to not defend bronies when they are accused of being immature, when even the creator of the show herself accuses them of such (in a critical manor no less). Also, the positive traits are not related to ones maturity, but ones morality. Every adult is expected to be honest, generous, loyal, kind ect. So when someone like an adult sees what should be obvious to him in a very strait forward way it is not unreasonable to see him as immature. I stopped watching MLP myself a long time ago because I want to watch grown up entertainment, with complex characters, well structured stories, and deep relevant themes; not watch a show for children and pretend it has all those things.

Ugh, this response was MUCH longer than I wanted it to be, and considering how long ago this article was posted, I wouldn't be surprised if there were no interest in responding because it's relevance has faded out. If anyone does they're free to contact me privately, since I'd like some more perspective on things like maturity in the fandom, and sexuality in the fandom.

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First I'd have to criticize your choice of title, it gives the impression that you think masculinity is a bad thing, and also implies that you can have only one or the other. There's nothing wrong with being masculine, or being a furry, and likewise, there's nothing wrong with not being any of those things

He's criticizing the way Elmore preaches for rigid limits of masculinity and saying Elmore's definition is bad, not the tolerant kind. The second sentence is reasonable, until-

"we all know of the consequences of something like sexuality getting out of hand"

Whenever I see a "we" statement it makes me say "speak for yourself". When I see people spread fright about "sexuality" (rather than talking about exploitation or consent), it shows an unhealthy obsession because their own sexuality is too much "in hand".

"Fursuit Yiff" will get you over 20 pages of results on xtube"

"It was just research I swear!" Suuuure... Please compare notes with Elmore and tell which ones to avoid :)

If we raise a generation of people who are lack independence, and are severely oversensitive

It's ironic how the urge to make people dependent on biblical dogma takes so much oversensitivity about what consenting adults do. And shaming to keep them in line, and resentment of expression. It's impossible to overlook how that comes from a really ugly dude. Elmore could benefit from some fursuiting therapy. Man needs to loosen his gasket. Not sure if he'd get hugs as a constipated S&M frog though.

One thing I'm REALLY glad you brought up is the question of what exactly IS mature and immature.

Sounds like you're getting somewhere... Elmore already has his answers and wants to preach them to everyone else, too bad they're wrong. Being mature/manly involves questioning dogma and defining yourself.

The Furries & conservatives article I linked up there got me more than a few protests from conservative furries saying they felt overlooked/marginalized. It was worth hearing, especially when even they said Elmore was a fossilized douchebag who couldn't think or make any point that wasn't literally from his bible.

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First I'd have to criticize your choice of title, it gives the impression that you think masculinity is a bad thing, and also implies that you can have only one or the other. There's nothing wrong with being masculine, or being a furry, and likewise, there's nothing wrong with not being any of those things; and it goes without saying that furry and masculinity aren't mutually exclusive.

Actually, Rakuen was critiquing Elmore's position that masculinity is something to strive for, that lacking masculinity is a moral failing. I mean, can you really read the words "masculinity is the fuel on which society runs, on which innovation occurs, on which industries are built and on which wars are fought to protect a free people" and not see it as masturbatory denigration of those who don't share his nationalist machismo?

To him, furry fandom is synonymous with murrsuiters. While he is wrong, once again it's hard to blame him considering that "Fursuit Yiff" will get you over 20 pages of results on xtube.

Sure, if your only knowledge of something comes from xtube you're likely to associate it with sexual things. But if the rest of us can put our dicks away, close xtube and Google things like a normal fucking person, I'm sure Elmore is capable of the same.

Not really that viewing furries through a purely sexual lens matters, anyway. It has not bearing on the fact that this sexual Bolshevism crock of shit is nonsense.

You later state that he has an "obsession" with masculinity, I have to disagree with you on that. He only touches on it briefly in one paragraph, then moves on to the topic of maturity.

If you consider masculinity to be the fuel of society and write articles about how those failing to achieve it are degenerating society, it's fair for people to consider you obsessed with it.

When I read his article, I found that rather confusing, what does masculinity have to do with sexuality? Masculinity is defined as traits associated with men. How does that relate to something like age, or sexual behavior?

Sexual orientation and activity are actually highly linked to the concept of masculinity, because masculinity is a pedestal; it's why MSM are considered effeminate and "failed" men, and why lesbians and bisexual women are considered more masculine. It's why gay/trans "panic" and "corrective" rape exists. If you don't know that already you might want to reconsider engaging in a discussion about the topic of masculinity, your analysis would seem to need more nuance.

liberalism (and other issues associated with it like GLBT)

what

will lead to extreme dependence on government, similar to how children are dependent on their parents. When you think about it, he does have a point. If we raise a generation of people who are lack independence, and are severely oversensitive, they're going to have some problems interacting in the unfair harsh world we live in.

See my above comment about your need to refine you analysis.

And of course, it's DEFINITELY not childish to enjoy eroticism.

lol

But then again maybe we should judge them on a case by case basis.

Why? Why do you need to judge these things at all? What's really wrong with someone liking cartoons or dressing up or playing pretend, even if it is childish? None of this matters!

I stopped watching MLP myself a long time ago because I want to watch grown up entertainment, with complex characters, well structured stories, and deep relevant themes; not watch a show for children and pretend it has all those things.

The answer to a question nobody asked.

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"Google things like a normal fucking person"

After googling "furry" it didn't take long to find porn. Once again, it's not his fault he thinks we are a fetish fandom.

"If you consider masculinity to be the fuel of society and write articles about how those failing to achieve it are degenerating society, it's fair for people to consider you obsessed with it."

But I don't, masculinity are characteristics associated with men. Like I said earlier, I found his mention of it questionable and confusing.

"Sexual orientation and activity are actually highly linked to the concept of masculinity"

I meant sexual activity an a general sense, not in reference to orientation. Otherwise a very interesting response.

"what"

Liberalism is pro-homosexual, whereas conservatism is not. Long story short, he doesn't like liberalism, and he's focusing on the fandom and homosexuality.

"Why? Why do you need to judge these things at all?"

What's wrong with judging?

"What's really wrong with someone liking cartoons or dressing up or playing pretend"

I never said anything was wrong with it. Like I said earlier, both adults and children can enjoy the same activities, but those activities may be drastically different because of their age. You seem to be getting the impression that I'm painting the fandom as something inherently childish, when my last comment said otherwise.

"even if it is childish? None of this matters!"

It does actually, children cannot function independently in society. Go ahead and sleep for 18 hours a day, walk around with a soiled diaper, and throw a temper tantrum every time you don't get what you want, see how far you get. If people do not grow up and act like adults, they will not be treated like adults, no will they get all the benefits adults enjoy (money, house, spouse, children, voting, drivers license ect). At first glance it may not seem like a problem, but considering there's a middle aged man who abandoned his family so he can live his life as a five year old girl, the line between "playing pretend" and "delusional gets dangerously blurred. This is why we need to show people that our fandom can appeal to adults as well as children, instead of taking the "If that's wrong I don't wanna be right" mentality.

Thank you for your response, it seems Patch completely lost interest which disappoints me. Hopefully you'll still wish to continue it.

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After googling "furry" it didn't take long to find porn. Once again, it's not his fault he thinks we are a fetish fandom.

Hey buddy, you're the one who said he got his views from xtube, not me.

"If you consider masculinity to be the fuel of society and write articles about how those failing to achieve it are degenerating society, it's fair for people to consider you obsessed with it."

But I don't, masculinity are characteristics associated with men. Like I said earlier, I found his mention of it questionable and confusing.

Er. CC, I was talking about your objection to describing Elmore as "obsessed" with masculinity. You do remember saying this:

You later state that he has an "obsession" with masculinity, I have to disagree with you on that.

don't you? At least keep your own argument straight. This isn't about you, man, I'm really sorry to have to tell you.

Liberalism is pro-homosexual, whereas conservatism is not.

lol

What's wrong with judging?

Nice try evading the question, dude.

It does actually, children cannot function independently in society.

There's a difference between "childish" behavior and literally being a child, CC, don't pretend you don't understand that. But if you're really going to try to fight that battle, I will point out that very, very few people function independently in society--and shouldn't have to. Roads, social interaction, and teamwork are good things, CC.

It does actually, children cannot function independently in society. Go ahead and sleep for 18 hours a day, walk around with a soiled diaper, and throw a temper tantrum every time you don't get what you want, see how far you get. If people do not grow up and act like adults, they will not be treated like adults, no will they get all the benefits adults enjoy (money, house, spouse, children, voting, drivers license ect).

What's it called when you ignore someone's argument and opt for arguing against a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of their argument instead, again? It's on the tip of my tongue...

If people do not grow up and act like adults, they will not be treated like adults, no will they get all the benefits adults enjoy (money, house, spouse, children, voting, drivers license ect).

Did you mean "nor" will they get? I'm sorry, but that's not correct. Voting is a legal right that isn't taken away because of "childish" behavior, having a spouse is not a right but since there are plenty of furries who are married or in other types of committed relationships, that's pretty much moot. A driver's license, money, and children are all things that children can have (for better or worse) so I don't really know what you're getting at here.

At first glance it may not seem like a problem, but considering there's a middle aged man who abandoned his family so he can live his life as a five year old girl, the line between

??? What the hell? What does this have to do with the existence of a community for fans of anthropomorphic animals? Can you go be off-topic somewhere else?

the line between "playing pretend" and "delusional gets dangerously blurred.

So is this an issue with enjoying things related to children, or an issue of recognizing symptoms of mental illness? Make up your mind, man. How can you expect people to not "lose interest" in discussing things with you if you can't even make a coherent argument, instead just flinging whatever you think will stick into the reply box?

This is why we need to show people that our fandom can appeal to adults as well as children

I mean, I think the simple facts that two-thirds or so of the community are adults, and there are dozens of conventions--by nature organized, funded, and run by adults--for the subject attended by thousands of mostly-adults are more than enough.

Also, unrelated questions, but do you read articles here regularly or do you just check in every few months to look for a thread you can throw in the most inflammatory responses you can think of? If you lurk regularly, do you read the comments sections often, or just articles?

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"you're the one who said he got his views from xtube"

I never said that.

"This isn't about you, man"

I never said it was.

"Nice try evading the question, dude."

Nice try evading mine.

"don't pretend you don't understand that"

See below.

"I will point out that very, very few people function independently in society"

I'm not talking about hermits who build their own house from scratch and grow vegetables in their back yard, I'm talking about independence in the sense that you have a job, make your own money, have a car, pay your bills, taxes insurance ect. It's ironic how you accuse me of not understanding what the topic is about yet miss what I'm obviously saying (I suspect deliberately).

"Roads, social interaction, and teamwork are good things"

I never said anything to the contrary, please stop putting words in my mouth.

"Strawman"

How exactly is this a straw-man? If behavior is childish, it's likely going to cause harm to you if you're an adult. If I missed your point, please clarify.

"Voting is a legal right that isn't taken away because of "childish" behavior,"

While that may be true do a degree (voting is a privilege, not a right), consider that half of the anti-Trump protestors (that Trump voters like to call "crybabies") didn't even vote. They act like children, and not surprisingly, no one (including our government) took their opinion seriously.

"but since there are plenty of furries who are married or in other types of committed relationships, that's pretty much moot."

It seems here you're trying to imply that I'm accusing furries of being childish, I'm actually arguing the opposite here. Once again, maybe you should read the comment I make before you respond to them.

"A driver's license, money, and children are all things that children can have (for better or worse)"

I mean that in two ways, first, it is illegal for a child to have a drivers license (depending on the state) and to have sex, and by money I mean large quantities, not a few bucks for the vending machines as school. The second is, if you act like a child, You will never take the time to learn now to drive (or driver very irresponsibly), you will never get a job (and thus have money) and you will never find someone who will want to marry you (until you "grow up").

"What does this have to do with the existence of a community for fans of anthropomorphic animals?"

Nothing, I'm talking about how dangerous it can be to act immature to the point where it becomes a mental delusion and can hurt a lot of people. Like I said before, I argued against the fandom being this bad.

"So is this an issue with enjoying things related to children, or an issue of recognizing symptoms of mental illness?"

The first one, I never said anything about mental illness, I'm talking about how people can take the idea of being "childish" or innocently enjoying something more geared toward children to an extreme. I seriously don't understand how you misinterpret what I say so much, this is why I suspect you're doing this on purpose. You don't want to agree with me even if you think I am right because there's apparently some stigma with seeing eye to eye with Crusader Cat.

"I mean, I think the simple facts that two-thirds or so of the community are adults, and there are dozens of conventions--by nature organized, funded, and run by adults--for the subject attended by thousands of mostly-adults are more than enough."

That's also a very solid argument.

"but do you read articles here regularly or do you just check in every few months"

I hardly ever read anything here, in this particular case someone linked this in a telegram group I'm in. While I may have tried my fail-tier trolling in the past (very immature of me, I know) I'm not trying it now. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm trying to have a serious discussion, and hopefully get some more insight into the subject matter.

Also, just to keep it in one comment thread, here's my response to your other comment:

"If you don't want people to rate your comments poorly"

It's not that you rated them poorly, it's that you seemed to rate them without reading them, simply because you don't like the person who posted them. In a discussion like the one we're having, it's very intellectually dishonest.

Your rating: None Average: 5 (1 vote)

(voting is a privilege, not a right)

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax."
"The right of citizens of the United States, who are 18 years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state on account of age."

I know that words are hard for you but don't bullshit me like this, man.

consider that half of the anti-Trump protestors (that Trump voters like to call "crybabies") didn't even vote. They act like children, and not surprisingly, no one (including our government) took their opinion seriously.

WEW LAD

I mean that in two ways, first, it is illegal for a child to have a drivers license (depending on the state) and to have sex

No. It's not.

by money I mean large quantities, not a few bucks for the vending machines as school.

"Having large quantities of money" is not a side-benefit of being an adult. What does this have to do with furries again, anyway?

I never said anything about mental illness

And yet, in the paragraph above:

the point where it becomes a mental delusion

I'm convinced that all that kitty-diddling has left you oxygen deprived, CC.

You don't want to agree with me even if you think I am right because there's apparently some stigma with seeing eye to eye with Crusader Cat.

Oh, don't get me wrong, CC--I definitely disagree with you that childishness is a moral failing even when it has become a mental illness, because I don't think being mentally ill is a moral failing. Just a little thing I keep in my back pocket called "empathy" I like to pull out from time to time, it's quite useful.

It's not that you rated them poorly, it's that you seemed to rate them without reading them, simply because you don't like the person who posted them. In a discussion like the one we're having, it's very intellectually dishonest.

You can't just accuse me of not having read your patent nonsense just because you don't like my reaction to them, and then accuse me of intellectual dishonesty, dude. What, did you want me to have two threads' worth of "discussion" with you? Sheesh. Shocking though it may be, not everything you ooze onto a page is worth responding to.

Your rating: None Average: 2 (3 votes)

"who are 18 years of age or older"

My point still stands.

"No it's not"

*facepalm* Ok, show me the 10 year old that was issued a drivers license, and do you seriously not know what "age of consent" is? When Elmore claimed that most furries were pedos, I sadly didn't doubt him as much as I would have liked, now you just given weight to his claim.

"'Having large quantities of money' is not a side-benefit of being an adult."

Having money is a benefit of having a stable job, which is something adults do. How are you constantly misunderstanding me so much? Do you want to have a discussion and get some insight, or do you just want to "pwn" me so you can post the screenshots on twitter like some kind of trophy? The more this happens the more it seems like your doing this deliberately.

"And yet, in the paragraph above:"

Nice job putting words in my mouth again, This is the third time I accused you of not reading what I wrote before you responded. How many more times must I repeat myself?

"I definitely disagree with you that childishness is a moral failing even when it has become a mental illness"

We're not talking about mental illness, we're talking about childishness, the example I cited is an extreme case of how it can hurt not only that mans family, but the entire trans community.

"kitty-diddling"

Nice ad-hominem there, a classic symptom of losing the argument. Also, if your going to delve into unsupported internet rumors, there's quite a bit of dirt on you, but I won't bring it up because I'm a better person than that.

"Just a little thing I keep in my back pocket called 'empathy'"

If you have empathy, why would you mock me for supposedly being mentally handicapped just two sentences before?

"You can't just accuse me of not having read your patent nonsense just because you don't like my reaction to them"

No, I accused you of of reading them because you clearly didn't, and when you did you twist my words in a limp wristed attempt to make me the fool. Not only that but you childishly ignore points that I make with thinks like "lol" and "wew lad" as if it's some kind of argument. I am trying to discuss like an adult, and get some more information on the subject matter from people with a differing point of view, you're just interested in contradicting me even when it doesn't make sense so you can put another notch on your laptop for the latest internet argument you "won".

"patent nonsense"

This is more proof that you barely even read what I write here. You already have the pre-conceived notion that I'm wrong just because I'm Crusader Cat, and the "right" thing to do when talking to Crusader Cat is to contradict his statements, twist his words, and insult him. I shook my head when Patch threw in the towel and insulted me like a child, now I see you going down the same path. It's a shame, I was hoping you'd me more mature than him. I guess I was wrong.

"did you want me to have two threads' worth of 'discussion' with you?"

Yes, because although I disagree with you, I VALUE your opinion, You had some good arguments in favor of the fandom being mature and responsible, and you corrected me when you feel I'm wrong, (and in some cases, I agree I was). I am here to discuss, learn, and in the end know more than I had coming in, and thanks to people like you, I have done that. I'd assume you were the same way, but it seems you're just losing your temper and want to mock and insult me like a child.

"not everything you ooze onto a page is worth responding to."

And yet you respond to EVERY comment I have made on this page so far, even when it was not addressed to you. Since you're clearly starting to lose control of your emotions, perhaps you should take a break from the internet for a bit.

Your rating: None Average: 5 (1 vote)

Dude, if you think that literally quoting you is "putting words in your mouth", I don't know what to tell you. I guess that the only way to discuss things with you must be to ignore what you say, and somehow just surmise what you really mean with magical crystals or whatever, because if I actually respond to your words I get accused of not reading things anyway.

If you think I'm attacking you to share with others and mock on Twitter, you might be experiencing delusions of your own, and while that's common, it's not something I'm going to take seriously or respond to in anyway that doesn't include a degree of pity.

Though you may value my opinion, this was never intended by me to be a round of seasoned discourse or a debate to be "won", because I do not extend the same sentiment to you. My responses would have likely been shorter, more vulgar, and more explicitly disdainful from the start if I hadn't thought it would frighten you off immediately. Otherwise, how would I get any amusement from your repeated insertion of conservative/reactionary bait, strange and unasked for personal information about yourself, and your taking Elmore, yourself, and this discussion way more seriously than anyone else here?

If you think me calling things "nonsense" or "ooze" is me losing control of my emotions, why didn't you feel the same in my original reply, where I called things "nonsense", "masturbatory", and "crock of shit"? Could it be that you're just trying to claim a "rational" high ground by painting me as having emotions and therefore being unreasonable, and not actually because I'm losing my cool in any way? Say it ain't so, Crusader Cat!

Your rating: None Average: 1.6 (5 votes)

MASCULINITY:

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding masculinity on both sides here. While I was writing my original comment I looked up the definition and it was "pertaining to the characteristics of men". In light of this it seems he Rakuen may be correct. I suppose when Mr. Elmore uses the word "Masculine" we should see the word "responsible".

GETTING OUT OF HAND:

Ok, I'll explain a bit more what I meant. When I said sexuality "getting out of hand" I was referring to things like unprotected sex, sex with strangers, sexual/pornographic addiction, and various forms of criminal sexual misconduct. These things have serious repercussions. We need to be responsible with all of our actions, those involving sex are no different.

INDEPENDENCE:

I think you misunderstand me here, when I say independence, I'm referring to it in a material and financial sense. There's nothing wrong with relying on ones personal/religious beliefs to guide you in your life, everyone does it. I'm talking about having a good job, managing your money well, living on ones own, and having a plan for the future. Also, you seem to stray quite a bit into Ad Hominem here, Which unfortunately gives me the impression that you had no counter argument to what I originally said. Keep in mind lack of independence, responsibility, and over-sensitivity are common stereotypes of furries.

MATURITY:

In hindsight, I'm really glad I read this article and responded to it because it's given me a lot to think about in the past couple days. I also think we should focus mostly on this part since we seems to be on the same page here. Unfortunately, you seem to fall into the same trap you accuse him of. Namely being set on what you think is right and telling others that's what they should think. I feel that that is completely irrelevant since everyone has a set of beliefs they feel are correct and tries to convince others of it, there is nothing inherently wrong with that. You seem to ascribe aspects of maturity which seem a bit questionable. The way you stated it came off to me as a subtle insult (which I don't think you intended), as if being a Christian somehow made you immature by default. When Mr. Elmore brings up the topic of maturity it seems he's referring to common stereotypes about furries, as well as the perception that being a fan of "cartoon animals" and dressing up and (supposedly) pretending to be one is behavior attributed to children. This is what I've been thinking about most in the past couple days, I'll share with you what I've discovered:

---Particular types of behavior are either age restricted ("childish" or "mature") or they are not.

---Those that are not age restricted are done by both children and adults, but they way they are done are very different because of age.

---Examples of the above: Halloween. Both children and adults celebrate Halloween, children dress up in costumes and go door to door collecting candy, adults dress up in costumes and go to parties and get drunk. Watching TV. Children wake up early on Saturday morning to watch cartoon network, adults stay up at 11:30 to watch an HBO.

---With this in mind, let's examine some aspects of Furry Fandom: Is enjoying anthropomorphic art age restricted or not? Let's assume it is not and come up with examples of how both age groups can enjoy it. A child might enjoy it because it's "cute" or simply because it's an animal, after all, what child doesn't want to play with his dog? An adult might enjoy it because of it's creativity, usefulness as a symbolic representation of human behavior or characteristics, or maybe because this type of art gives us something different. Is dressing up in costumes age restricted or not? Let's assume it is not and come up with example. A child would dress up in a costume for play, he will pretend to be the superhero (or in this case animal), so basically, a child might do this for roleplay. An adult might do this as a form of performance, appreciation for the craftsmanship (fursuits are "wearable art" after all) an expression of their personality, spirituality, (and in some cases sexuality), or it's just their favorite animal.

This is basically what I came up with. Feel free to discuss and expand on this. I certainly look forward to your response since it looks like we found out something very important here. Thank you for your time.

Your rating: None Average: 3 (4 votes)

tl;dr and counterpoint: you're crusader cat

You avoided the only interesting part, "Fursuit Yiff" will get you over 20 pages of results on xtube". go on, what has your research discovered?

Your rating: None Average: 3.7 (3 votes)

CC can join Elmore in pontificating about maturity and masculinity and age restrictions all he wants, I'll go draw more cute talking zebras and watch cartoons and actually enjoy things.

Your rating: None Average: 1.8 (4 votes)

Just wondering, did you read my second response after Patch? I think you should read my comments before giving them one star.

https://www.flayrah.com/6417/opinion-id-trade-my-man-card-furry-conbadge#comment...

Your rating: None Average: 4.8 (4 votes)

If you don't want people to rate your comments poorly, you'd be better off telling them not to read them at all. Or not posting. Yeah, that's a good one, just don't post any comments at all, and I'll never rate one "Poor" again.

Your rating: None Average: 2.5 (2 votes)

"Crusader Cat is not welcome here."

Your rating: None Average: 2 (5 votes)

I'm really disappointed in you, your first response was rather good and got me thinking, now it seems you just want to throw insults at me and make sex jokes. Why do you not want to read my response? Are you really that oversensitive to criticism? Sadly this plays into what Mr. Elmore is saying. Furries are immature and oversensitive. Hopefully this will be a learning experience for you.

Your rating: None Average: 5 (3 votes)

I was being flippant. I don't want anything to do with Elmore or his nonsense except treating him like a clown. I don't take him as a critic any more than I'd take the bible as a guide to science. I'm also not interested in your personal opinion if you take him seriously but have fun with it. However if you aren't spinning your wheels with that and bring us some place else, that would be neat. I'm thinking of Jack Chick, the guy could draw... did you ever try making furry comics? Or for some other kind of personal belief, I really love a beautiful personality like Boomer the Dog. He doesn't argue whether he's a dog or not. He just is, and other people can appreciate him for being him.

Your rating: None Average: 2.7 (3 votes)

"I'm also not interested in your personal opinion"

Then why did you even respond in the first place?

"other people can appreciate him for being him."

Really, cause from what I heard people were pissed about his appearance on Dr. Phil who, as we all know, is the modern day P.T. Barnum. Also, if people really do appreciate a person who's clearly delusional, it just adds to the reason conservatives like Mr. Elmore think we're ruing society. He has every right to think we're some kind of Satan worshiping bestiality werewolf cult, we're kind of sort of acting like one.

Your rating: None Average: 5 (1 vote)

Crusader Cat, while I for one am definitely involved in a Satan worshipping werewolf cult, the bestiality part is all you, buddy.

Your rating: None Average: 5 (2 votes)

I wish Boomer was here and CC was getting help

Merry Antichristmass to you. Awoo!

Your rating: None Average: 2.5 (2 votes)

I'd rather belong to a Satan worshiping bestiality werewolf cult than the Alt-Right. Only one of those truly wants to, and is, ruining society. (Hint: it's not the Satan worshiping bestiality werewolf cult.)

And if the Alt-Right regards Furry as a Satan worshiping bestiality werewolf cult, that can only be a bad thing for Crusader Cat and his very public and easily-Googled membership of said Satan worshiping bestiality werewolf cult.

And whatever's bad for Crusader Cat cannot be such a bad state of affairs.

Merry fucking Christmas.

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About the author

Rakuen Growlitheread storiescontact (login required)

a student and Growlithe from South Africa/Austria, interested in science, anime and power metal

I'm a fur from South Africa, now living in Austria, who got into the fandom through my interest in pokemon and writing fanfiction. Outside of furry, I have spend a lot of my time in gaming (particularly Dota 2) and science.